April 21, 2004

Small Roundup

from - smijer

Chuck Hagel has stuck his neck out and started talking about re-instituting the draft. Reactions from the opinionated are somewhat varied. I cannot find the post, but Daily Kos is in favor.

Doug McDaniel (whose book about Asheville, NC is due out very soon) doesn't make his opinion clear, but urges young men... and women... to "Saddle up!" He also quotes extensively from Hagel's own words in support of a draft.

Oliver Willis says: "I believe a draft is immoral, and doubly so for this war in this situation." Ezra at pandagon disagrees.

At my age, I would feel far too hypocritical to weigh in strongly on this. I just hope that Hagel and others don't try to play the "egalitarianist card" to get the draft, and then use it only to save the Prancer's butt - revoking it as soon as Iraq is under control (or Syria, in the event of a November re-election).

That's item one of the small round-up. Item two is just a props to Jesse at pandagon, who handily disarms David Limbaugh's recent ploy to further marginalize a certain religious minority and to advance the anti-scienctific cause of the Intelligent Design Creationists. Very well done, Jesse.

::

Posted by smijer at April 21, 2004 07:31 AM
Comments

Concerning the draft.....and just turning my son over to a government that would send him out as wrecklessly as this administration has proven to....right, over my dead body. If my son chooses to go (and he can out-wrestle me) well then I guess he goes, but no one is going to mail us a slip of paper that would have me just turn him over, ...even if he IS over 18, he is still my son and I will never let him forget it....even if I have to beat on him continually until he gets the point.

A just cause is a just cause, I have no problem with national defense, ...but our government had better have a clear cut concrete case in the future before doing anything like what has been witnessed in Iraq. The days of a pre-emptive invasion of a sovereign nation based on dubious intelligence are over.

Having said that, what is done is done, we are there now and we must get the job done, but our first job, first and foremost, should be the hearts and minds of the Iraqis...and from that aspect it seems we are trying to reach the north pole by way of South America..., we need to stop, look at the map, and turn around.

univar.jpg Posted by jadarm on April 21, 2004 09:32 AM
Link to comment

Kos's original mention of his opinion on the draft is here.

I tend to agree. I think a draft, if instituted in a fair way (unlikely), would result in a force preferrable to that of the one we have one -- consisting of mostly the lower class and overpaid private "contractors.".

I think a lot of people oppose the draft on the assumption that it would mean yet more people being forced to fight a war they don't support.

But conversely you have to consider the shift in public opinion that would result from the institution of a draft, as kos points out. It's a lot harder to be a hawk when the chance of you or someone you know having to fight the war is greatly increased.

I don't believe we as a country should resort to force and violence at every turn in our international affairs. However, if we must, I believe the entire populace should bear the responsibility of fighting such wars, and I would consider it an intermediate step towards decreasing our proclivity to start them in the first place.

I am also bummed that the reaction to my original idea for the draft was so lukewarm. Heh.

univar.jpg Posted by Chris Wage on April 21, 2004 10:00 AM
Link to comment
The days of a pre-emptive invasion of a sovereign nation based on dubious intelligence are over.

I think they have only just begun. When a government decides to remake the world in their image at the barrel of a gun then invasions and occupations become the order of the day. This has nothing to do with national defense.

we are there now and we must get the job done, but our first job, first and foremost, should be the hearts and minds of the Iraqis

Hearts and minds are never won with tanks and bombs. Remember the old adage "he whose opinion is changed against his will has the same opinion still."

The most laughable argument for the draft is that everyone will share equally in the burden. Just remember that some will serve in Iraq, Iran and Syria while others will serve in Indiana, Illinois and South Dakota.

Remember the words of the prophet J.C. Fogerty:

Some folks are born made to wave the flag,
ooh, they're red, white and blue.
And when the band plays "Hail To The Chief",
they point the cannon at you.

It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no senator's son,
It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no fortunate one.

I have two daughters of cannon fodder age. I think they would both enjoy Canada.

univar.jpg Posted by boortzlistener on April 21, 2004 10:21 AM
Link to comment

Chris, sorry I didn't see your thoughts on the matter when I put together my little round-up. BoortzListner may be right in thinking that the priviledged class will always find a way to avoid doing the same service that the rest have to do - but at least where I am concerned, your point is well-taken.

univar.jpg Posted by smijer on April 21, 2004 10:31 AM
Link to comment

The days of a pre-emptive invasion of a sovereign nation based on dubious intelligence are over.
I think they have only just begun. When a government decides to remake the world in their image at the barrel of a gun then invasions and occupations become the order of the day. This has nothing to do with national defense.

******I tend to disagree a bit here. Our success in Desert Storm made it easier to send our troops out this time. The mess we currently find ourselves in Iraq will not soon be forgotten....how long did it take after Vietnam for us to commit our troops to battle easily?? The next president will have to have his ducks solidly in a row before sending our troops out.

BTW, my point on national security was not our invasion of Iraq, I was making a point in reference to the draft and my son going to combat. If it is without question that our nations security is threatened then I would back his participation.

-------------------------------------------------

we are there now and we must get the job done, but our first job, first and foremost, should be the hearts and minds of the Iraqis
Hearts and minds are never won with tanks and bombs. Remember the old adage "he whose opinion is changed against his will has the same opinion still."

******Hence my statement that we are headed to the north pole by way of South America, maybe it was a confusing analogy but I didnt think so at the time.

univar.jpg Posted by jadarm on April 21, 2004 11:27 AM
Link to comment

Well, let me be clear that I am not deadset on the idea. My support is contingent largely on the implementation of a draft, because that determines much.

I share boortzlistener's cynicism.

univar.jpg Posted by Chris Wage on April 21, 2004 12:01 PM
Link to comment

Smijer points out that I don't make my position clear on the Draft. Let me be clear: The great sucking sound you hear if a draft is instituted will be that of young men (women still not subject to draft per Selective Service) fleeing in droves. I personally think that our current administration is wrecking an all-volunteer military by fighting pointless wars against two-bit dictatorships. I think Bush forgot the "walk softly" part and just remembers the "big stick".

I was a Navy Reserve E-5 with the 2d Marine Airwing during Desert Storm. I volunteered to serve my country, and I was better for it. I learned from many challenging experiences some life lessons about people, and management, and even Internet technology (as it was in 1990, when we used a satellite based email system to send Harvard Graphics presentations to our ships in the Gulf.)

I am against a draft. Conscription as a means to defend our country stratifies social classes and exploits the underclasses. Guys like Bush, Cheney, Clinton, etc will still find ways to get educational deferments, despite what the Selective Service web site indicates.

HOWEVER, I wish more men and women would be selfless enough to consider serving their country in our all-volunteer military, and learning more about themselves in the process.

My point in quoting Hagel is that the GOP is laying out a strategy to reinstitute the draft, and guys like Hagel are pimping the concept for Bush. Trust me, you'll only see a draft after the election and only if Bush wins or steals the election. Either is possible.

univar.jpg Posted by Doug McDaniel on April 21, 2004 12:44 PM
Link to comment

Doug McDaniel for President :-)

univar.jpg Posted by jadarm on April 21, 2004 01:46 PM
Link to comment
If it is without question that our nations security is threatened then I would back his participation.

I like to think that if this country was the victim of an unprovoked attack I would not only expect others to fight the attackers but I would take up arms myself. I would never fight to ensure the long-term financial security of some Halliburton executive.

Joining the military is a grand idea if one could be assured that the military’s purpose would be one of defense rather than offense.

That will never, ever be the case again (if it ever was). We are the world’s policemen and the majority of our population is satisfied with this arrangement. Our policy and the policy of Israel are virtually indistinguishable. Our only role in the Middle East will now be one of the hired gun only we are paying for the privilege of carrying out the will of Ariel Sharon.

We are in a mess of gargantuan proportion and it is a mess of our own making.

univar.jpg Posted by boortzlistener on April 21, 2004 02:19 PM
Link to comment
Comments for this entry are closed. Please leave your notes on a more recent comment thread.