June 22, 2004

Sudan

from - smijer

She saw the Janjaweed round up all the villagers, including her husband and his three young brothers: Moussa, 8, Mochtar, 6, and Muhammad, 4. "Even the boys," she remembers. "They tied their hands like this" - she motioned with her arms in front of her - "and then forced them to lie on the ground." Then, she says, the males were all shot to she says, the males were all shot to death, while women were taken away to be raped.
- source

It's happening now. We should be paying attention. If the media is too busy writing the gossip pages to notice, then we need to quit buying their product until they start noticing.

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Posted by smijer at June 22, 2004 08:01 AM
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Glad to see you're back among the living Smijer!

I am interested to know........

Besides "paying attention" what would you have the West do?

univar.jpg Posted by boortzlistener on June 23, 2004 10:25 AM
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Thanks buddy. I hope I can stay around a while.

Paying attention (and letting that be known to the powers that be) would be a great start. What Bushco should be doing is introducing a UN resolution that declares the current affairs in the Sudan to be Genocide, which would then require the U.N. to intervene and stop the on-going genocide. I know you are a non-interventionist, but that's one place you and I differ. In cases like these I believe intervention is a necessity.

univar.jpg Posted by smijer on June 23, 2004 03:00 PM
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I know you are a non-interventionist, but that's one place you and I differ.
Not a problem here. I have been married to the same woman for 25 years so I consider disagreement a close, personal friend.
What Bushco should be doing is introducing a UN resolution that declares the current affairs in the Sudan to be Genocide, which would then require the U.N. to intervene and stop the on-going genocide.
Is there a particular point where common, everyday, government sponsored murder and mayhem becomes genocide? The reason I ask is because one of the reasons we are in Iraq is because of supposed mass graves. Genocide can become a convenient excuse for going where we want and doing what we want whenever we want.

Killing as a remedy for killing seems to be self-defeating.

univar.jpg Posted by boortzlistener on June 23, 2004 04:11 PM
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There are conventions. I don't have a handy reference, but Rwanda clearly qualified, though Clinton pussed out on it and diplomatically referred to it only as a "potential genocide" when his arm was twisted. Sudan clearly qualifies.

Whether Iraq would have qualified back when those mass graves were getting filled up is a good question. But when that was going on, it was a different President Bush in power. Genocide was not, and could not have been the rationale for the current war.

Killing as a remedy for killing seems to be self-defeating.

It may seem that way. It may even be that way many times. It is possible to use military force to stop these kinds of crimes, just like it is possible to use police force to stop a serial killer. If it is done with the right motivations and if it is done with overwhelming force (per the Powell doctrine), I think it can be an effective tool. It's certainly a lot more effective than doing nothing at all.

univar.jpg Posted by smijer on June 23, 2004 04:48 PM
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...but, if that serial killer wasnt arrested while he did it then he is fine....guess, so long as he is apprehended or made responsible at the very time the attrocities happens then it is ok to pursue jusice with "said" individual.

...but, oh no. ...let someone try to arrest him 10 years later and the crime doesnt stick...all the sudden, its immoral.

I see, thanks for pointing that out to me dude. See, in my ignorance, I would have thought that the SOB should have been responsible for his crimes til the day he passed on to Allah...no matter who the person was, and how long it took "said" person to come along, to make him/her responsible.

Thanks for showing me the err' of my ways.

univar.jpg Posted by Was Once Banned / May yet be once more... on June 23, 2004 10:38 PM
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When you are sober, you may come to consider whether warfare against an entire nation, together with subsequent occupation, is useful and justified by the just desire to prosecute a single individual for his past crimes. You may consider whether Saddam's responsibility for his actions is our immediate problem. Only then will you start worrying over the technical definitions of "genocide" versus "war crimes".

When you are sober, you may realize that a genocide in progress may place a more urgent demand on the world community - for the simple reason that ending it may save hundreds of thousands of innocent lives.

univar.jpg Posted by smijer on June 24, 2004 07:48 AM
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I was sober my friend, was dealing with a family crisis last night late into the morning....I am dead tired this morning and may be even worse tomorrow. I am possibly looking at a 10 hour work day followed by another 8 to 10 driving hours on the road before I will get home this evening...oops, shall I say tomorrow.

I have no problems with doing our best to eradicate genocide, only an idiot would. But you seem to politicize even the most basic argument to suit your agenda. Rush glosses over BS to suit his agenda...thats why I really cannot stand the guy, but you are not much different, just on the other side of the see-saw.

If you want a liberal on liberal discussion here then I will leave, unfortunately I dont think that is healthy. If you want debate or discussion, great I would love to participate. If you just want to talk to people who are going to agree with every word you utter then I think nothing will be learned here.

univar.jpg Posted by Mary Jane on June 24, 2004 08:23 AM
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Ok, yeah... it all makes perfect sense now. Because there is a problem that needs our attention in the Sudan, we must all praise GWB for his beautiful war in Iraq. Some killing bad, therefore all killing good. I'm sorry I glossed over that wonderful bit of logic.

univar.jpg Posted by smijer on June 24, 2004 08:48 AM
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P.S., thanks for looking out for our collective health. If making everything "fair and balanced" is of the utmost importance, then feel free to just copy and paste Rush's transcripts into the comment section any time you like. Please don't be offended if I can't take that stuff seriously.

univar.jpg Posted by smijer on June 24, 2004 08:54 AM
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They're noticing!

univar.jpg Posted by boortzlistener on June 24, 2004 04:38 PM
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Finally - starting to...

univar.jpg Posted by smijer on June 24, 2004 06:00 PM
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I am "noticing" that you understand genocide when it comes to a country that America has little knowledge of ... its' nice to be such an intellect that you stand out above the crowd so much...that you know and are aware of things that the American public "at large" is not...as usual I am in awe of your intellect, ...maybe more than you are in awe of it.

But what strikes me is that you can't see the genocide that is in front of your liberal face everynight. Maybe you dont watch certain TV channels, maybe, like in your blog, you choose only to watch the Channels, read the reports, and review the websites that agree with what you are saying, ....that way you dont have to stretch the imagination too much, ..you know, just business as usual and keep up your usual contemptual self.

When someone gasses their own population, its genocide!W

When a doctine is in place that encourages people to strap on C-4 to their bodies and run into a pizza parlor to kill only "innocents"...it's genocide.

When a certain dictator, that we have recently overthrown, begins offering $35,000.00 to the family of anyone who chases the "72 virgin dream" and causes the mass fatalities of innocents in said pizza parlor...sir,...it is genocide

univar.jpg Posted by Was Once Banned / May Yet Be Once More... on June 26, 2004 06:58 PM
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Your definition seems unusual. It seems similar to certain types of war crimes and certain types of terrorism. I don't think we are talking about the same thing. I'm using the word "genocide" with its ordinary meaning, as it applied to Hitler, Stalin, Milosovic, the Hutus in Rwanda and current events in Sudan. I'm not talking about these other issues. As important as those issues are, and as much as we need sensible policies to deal with past war crimes and present state-sponsorship of international terrorism, they are a thing apart from an on-going genocide.

univar.jpg Posted by smijer on June 27, 2004 10:17 AM
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