Buck, I would like to know where you get your statistics of civilians killed in the war in Iraq? How do you know the reliability of the report statistics? I know that civilians were asked to leave Fallujah before the invasion and I know that they were warned before every invasion and allowed to leave if they chose? Of course, I also know that Hussein used civilians and sometimes placed them in front of his units. I would like to be connected to your source as I am very interested in getting to the bottom of this. There are too many conflicting reports. Jan

Posted by Jan on November 16, 2004 05:39 PM Link to comment

That is why I used both the 15,000 and the 100,000 figure. There is no way to know because our official policy is not to do body counts. You will never get to the bottom of it. But common sense will tell you that when you start raining 2,000 pound bombs into cities innocent people will die. It is unavoidable. War is death and getting into arguments as to which was worse, Saddam or Bush, is not very productive. One used and the other is using violence as a means of problem solving so I am not particularly impressed with either.

Posted by Buck on November 16, 2004 10:47 PM Link to comment

Buck, I do not wish to antagonize you, however, I do think that it is irresponsible of you to compare George Bush to Saddam Hussein. Let's take a close look at the the two men. Saddam used chemical warfare against his own people. There were mass graves found in Iraq to prove what had already been reported. Saddam was a dictator who ruled by force, intimidation, and terrorist tactics. Saddam stayed in power with the use of police brutality and force. Saddam had no respect for women, other races, or those belonging to faiths other than his own. He maintained rape rooms where women of his own race were degraded. He used civilians as shields and sent women on suicide missions.
George Bush is the elected president of a democratic country. In four years, you and I both know that he will step down from the office of president. He respects women and people of other races enough to appoint them to high positions in his cabinet. He respects life at all stages and has taken strong pro-life positions. He warned all countries who harbor terrorist that the USA would no longer tolerate terrorist after the attack on 9/11. He repeatedly warned Saddam Hussein that unless certain well defined conditions were met the country of Iraq would be invaded and the Taliban would be dismantled and disarmed. The attack came as no surprise to Saddam. Saddam had time to comply. He did not. Still he and his army had ample time to prepare for battle (unlike our soldiers and citizens when terrorist attacked) and his citizens were able to take refuge. The armies of our country were followed by crews who have built schools, roads, offices, and provided the necessities of life. Each city has been warned ahead of each invasion to give citizens time to evacuate.
It is one thing for political parties in a country to disagree. It is another for citizens to make outrageous charges and to harm our young men and women who are there fighting even today. Throughout the presidential campaign I listened as outrageous remarks, untruthful remarks, and misinformed statements were made and I know that one person cannot answer them all. My husband says they should not be dignified with a response, but it is hard for me to swallow some of it.

Posted by Jan on November 17, 2004 07:24 PM Link to comment

Jan,

As I have told you before an argument as to which is worse Saddam or Bush is not going to be very productive.There are differences in the men and there are similarities. Remember, a terrorist is just a man with a bomb but no air force.

It has been alleged but not proven that Saddam used chemical weapons on his own people. But I can tell you this. If there was an uprising in this country against the government our own government without hesitation would use whatever weaponry or means at their disposal to put it down.

Saddam Hussein was very tolerant of people of other faiths and I do not believe that he really had a faith of his own. He certainly was not militantly Islamic. In fact he was an enemy of Al Qaeda and saw them as a threat to his own power.

Iraq had NOTHING to do with the attacks on 9/11. This has been admitted by everybody at every level of government (with the exception of Dick Cheney) and is now considered not even debatable.

The mass graves were filled primarily with those that were killed during the Iran / Iraq war. Back then Saddam was our buddy (remember the Rumsfeld/Saddam handshake photo?) As far as rape rooms and human shredders go, how can you be so sure? Have you ever heard of propaganda?

The Taliban was in Afghanistan, not Iraq.

Saddam was told to disarm and it has now been proven that he was not armed. It is hard to comply with an order to disarm when you are not armed in the first place.

Iraq was as good as invaded and occupied the first day Bush the son took office. All he needed was an excuse and had 9/11 not happened he would have manufactured another one.

People are dying in Iraq for nothing Jan. They are dying for absolutely nothing. Not my freedom. Not your freedom and certainly not for the freedom of the Iraqi's.

Iraq is the future gas station for China, Russia and most of Europe. We want to be sure that we own the station. If dying for that reason is something you would like to see your son or daughter die for then bully for you. The health and well being of oil industry executives just does not mean that much to me.

Bush is an oil man. Condaleeza Rice is an oil woman. Cheney is an oil man. It is no coincidence that an oil administration fights a war for oil in the Middle East. I am just not going to sacrifice myself or any of my children on their altar.

Posted by Buck on November 17, 2004 09:02 PM Link to comment

Buck, Did you see any of the documentaries that were done before the war in Iraq was begun? One was done by A & E Biography and the other was later. It was a CNN documentary on the sons of Saddam. I am uncertain of the date, but it was early on before the political campaign. Both A & E and CNN told of atrocities committed by Saddam and his sons. Later there were videos shown of men being mutilated. A particularly gruesome video showed the cutting out of a man's tongue cut. If my memory serves me correctly, it was CNN who reported that Saddam had his son-in-laws executed when they went against him politically. Women who escaped have testified to the brutality of the rape rooms. Check back to what was being said before the war became politicized.

Posted by Jan on November 18, 2004 04:36 PM Link to comment

Believe me Jan I have seen 'em all. But there is a reason why Hussein received a nod and a wink for decades by the United States and then was suddenly deemed a monster. There is a reason why his country was chosen over the countless other countries that are right now being lorded over by men far more sadistic and tyrannical than he ever was. The Iraqi people did not suddenly win a lottery and get the priviledge of having us step in and set them "free". They are sitting on top of what the world needs a whole lot of right now and it is not love.....it is oil.

We can sit back and watch this unfold. There is nothing else we can do about it.

Posted by Buck on November 18, 2004 09:44 PM Link to comment