Hey dude, long time no....ummm, read.

One question regarding your recent post....I dont question that the Muslim extremists hate us merely because we are free...but, in your view, what makes them hate us so?? What would drive a Muslim extremist to hate an American "infidel" so much that he would kill an innocent civilian just for being an American?

Posted by Jadarm on November 30, 2004 10:41 AM Link to comment

The report that I linked to sums it up pretty well

'Muslims do not hate our freedom, but rather they hate our policies [the report says]. The overwhelming majority voice their objections to what they see as one-sided support in favor of Israel and against Palestinian rights, and the long-standing, even increasing, support for what Muslims collectively see as tyrannies, most notably Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Pakistan and the Gulf states. Thus, when American public diplomacy talks about bringing democracy to Islamic societies, this is seen as no more than self-serving hypocrisy.'

It is important to remember that 99.9% of all Muslims would not kill you just because you are an American. Hell, there is a portion of them that would argue that we are killing them just because they are Muslims.

The idea that Americans run the risk of someday being forced to wear a turban and bow toward Mecca five times a day unless we rule and reign in the Middle East is ludicrous. Terrorists and fanatics do represent a limited threat to Americans but they pose no threat whatsoever to America. The biggest threat to your freedom and security is your own government and that is true whether the guy in the oval office has an R or a D next to his name.

Posted by Buck on November 30, 2004 11:27 AM Link to comment

You make them sound like heroes. Maybe I should seek out their help in getting rid of our government...you know, the ones with the R's or D's in front of them.

I am playing, ...somewhat.

Now, you mentioned that a lot of Muslims feel that we may be "profiling" them. Man, I hate to be the politically incorrect one (especially in this place) but who else is involved?? How many Russian or Chinese or Christians or Orthodox Jews or agnostics were on the planes that crashed into the Twin Towers?? Whom should we be targeting??

If you were head of security and personnel at Sequoyah Nuclear Plant and there was a Muslim applying for a sensitive position...wouldnt you at least take a double look? Now, I know the correct answer, ...."No Jadarm, I wouldnt. I would be just as skeptical with ANY applicant." That is the cliche' that we are supposed to use...no? I have family here and a cliche' wouldnt really cut it with me on this issue.

As for what Muslims would do to a person just because they are American...before I would believe Reuters, the Mirror, or left wing sympathizers I would suggest this. Send 5 volunteers, (liberals preferablly) and have them dress in the red, white, and blue....wear their Bon Jovi or Ludicrus T-Shirts, listen to their favorite Rap stars and hang up their Michael Jackson posters on their bedroom wall, eat their bacon in the morning and their bar-b -Q'd pork ribs on special occasions....and make sure they do this while living in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Lebanon.....and let me know how it goes.

Posted by Jadarm on November 30, 2004 03:07 PM Link to comment

Man, I hate to be the politically incorrect one

I think you like being the politically incorrect one. Otherwise you wouldn't already be blustering about how sensible religious or ethnic profiling seems to you. Whether you relish being politically incorrect, or whether you really fought with yourself over whether to mention views that some may find disagreeable or offenseive, you have let the proverbial cat out of the bag. So, let's talk about racial profiling and the underlying system fo thought behind your objections that Buck is making Arab Muslims seem "like heroes" when he mentions a report that reveals some of the motivation behind their distrust and fear of Americans, and the violence it enables.

If you were head of security and personnel at Sequoyah Nuclear Plant and there was a Muslim applying for a sensitive position...wouldnt you at least take a double look? Now, I know the correct answer, ...."No Jadarm, I wouldnt. I would be just as skeptical with ANY applicant." That is the cliche' that we are supposed to use...no? I have family here and a cliche' wouldnt really cut it with me on this issue.

You've obviously never applied for a position at a nuclear facility in the U.S. I challenge you to find out what background checks and cross-checks are required for such a position and what other security precautions are in place in case an untrustworthy applicant makes it in, and tell me exactly what more could be done to Muslims or Arabs that isn't already being done to everyone else. If there is anything that could be done and isn't, then it's not something that only needs to be done with Muslims.

One problem with profiling is that, unless you are profiling for a very rare trait, you are apt to find yourself trying to give special attention to a group that numbers in the hundreds of millions. So, while you have every government employee in the nation sniffing the armpits of self-identified Muslims and semitic looking people, a non-semitic, non-self-identifying Muslim will have no problem bringing his suitcase nuke (made from plutonium which we could have possibly secured if we weren't spending money on semitic armpit sniffers) on the plane and carrying it to Chattanooga (the number one target of terrorists, I understand) and blowing us to bits. Or a white non-Muslim may be using your tunnel vision to blow up another Federal building in Oklahoma. Or an OB/Gyn clinic.

Do you remember the security video that showed a couple of the 9/11 hijackers boarding a plane in DC or somewhere? Guess what: they weren't wearing turbans. To look at them, there was no way to tell if they praised Allah five times a day or if they were lighting incense to Vishnu. At that time, Americans weren't even doing a good job profiling for known terrorists, and they were able to board under their own names. If, however, we had been employing your strategy of profiling, you can be certain that they would have first been identified as Mssrs. Singh. Or Gonzales.

It seems like this was your answer to Buck's suggestion that some Muslims think we are killing them because they are Muslim. Now, I know you believe in racial profiling (whatever "keeps us safe", so long as it's someone else who has to pay the price, right?), but do you think that many of the targets of profiling hold the same beliefs about it? Have you ever been pulled out of line at a department store because the cashier forgot to remove a security tag? How would you like the same treatment every time you got on an airplane because of your religion? How would you like to miss your flight or be strip searched for the same reason? Could you be forgiven for thinking that they hated or marginalized you because you were Muslim?

The trap of profiling and other violations of civil egalitarianism in the name of "making us safer" is that a country whose government can treat the innocent like they are guilty and can treat browns different than whites is the kind of country that you are never really safe in at all. Who was it said, first they came for the Jews...? So you can give up your principles because the "cliche's aren't good enough for you", but in the end, you've given up both your principles and your safety. And as Ben Franklin rightly said, you really deserved neither.

Posted by smijer on November 30, 2004 04:13 PM Link to comment

P.S. Americans living in Muslim countries, so long as they avoid proselytizing, tend to be safe. There are quite a lot of them out there. About the only ones who have to live in constant fear are the ones living in the American Territory of Iraq.

Posted by smijer on November 30, 2004 04:15 PM Link to comment

It was not my intent to make anybody look like a hero but I do think that it is of the utmost importance that we keep in mind that these people are humans.

How many Russian or Chinese or Christians or Orthodox Jews or agnostics were on the planes that crashed into the Twin Towers?? Whom should we be targeting??

How many Iraqi's were on those planes and who have we targeted? Why?

Those who attacked us attacked us for reasons that I can easily understand. Those reasons have been outlined in the Pentagon's report. That does not keep me from vehemently disagreeing with their method of resolving the problems. Violence begets violence. It always has and it always will. Anything you are willing to kill for you must be willing to die for. They were willing to kill and they did die. I understand the desperate acts of desperate people but I do not condone them.

Smijer did a more than adequate job on the issue of profiling. Muslims are not always Arabs. Muslims are not always fanatics. To solve the problems we have in the Middle East today you must go directly to the root source first. The seeds of destruction that are bearing fruit today were planted long, long before you or I were even born. They did not begin with Bush. Bush is simply a man trying to get to the North while driving South. Regardless of his intentions his actions insure defeat.

The Middle East has not always been an abnormally dangerous place for Americans. However I would not venture into the Middle East because I know that there are those to whom I represent misery and oppression and death simply because I am an American. I know why they feel that way and it has nothing to do with what color clothes I might be wearing or whether or not I eat pork and listen to rap music.

I think the prudent thing to do when you are in any other country is respect the people and respect their culture.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you would work universally. It is such a shame it is a philosophy that has never really been tried.

Posted by Buck on November 30, 2004 06:09 PM Link to comment

Ok, now I feel like I have officially been gang raped. Thanks.

Like the new look guys.

(one notation smij: About 10 years ago the DOD listed Chattanooga in the top 5 among sites most likely to be hit in a nuclear strike.)

Posted by Jadarm on December 1, 2004 08:02 AM Link to comment