January 16, 2006
Whatever Happened to Sending in Delta
from - smijer
But, says former White House counterterror official Roger Cressey, "you've got to take that shot." So when a U.S. surveillance team got a tip that Al Qaeda's long-hunted No. 2, Ayman Al-Zawahiri, and fugitive Taliban chief Mullah Mohammed Omar were at a house in a village in the Bajur tribal region, the United States pulled the trigger. ... "I personally saw the 18 victims," Parliament member Haroon Rashed, who lives about a mile away, told NEWSWEEK. "Most of them were women and children. They were all locals. There were no foreigners." (Zawahiri is Egyptian.) Mohammed Rahim, 70, owner of one of the destroyed houses, wailed that several in his family had been killed. "I can't feed my own family. How could I afford to be hosting Zorayi?" he said, mispronouncing Zawahiri's name.
- link
Ok, so the CIA got a tip from a local with a grudge... or from an al Qaeda agent provacateur... or whatever... Do they not possess enough skepticism to at least get some eyes on the ground to do the shooting? How far is the helicopter trip from the nearest base in Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, or aircraft carrier? Is it so much worse to get caught with a few black ops in a border town than to get caught killing 18 Pakistani civilians, mostly women and children in that same town where we are supposed to "not be operating" (yeah, right)?
I just don't get it... where's the professionalism?
::Posted by smijer at January 16, 2006 06:29 PM
Forget professionalism. Firing missles into civilian areas of sovereign nations is just plain evil. What a shock, our evil actions killed a bunch of children and non-combatants and did nothing to advance the security or ourselves or the world. Even if they had a photo of Zawahiri standing in front of the village giving the thumbs-up sign, it would have been evil to fire a missle into this area. There is no excuse. None.
|
Posted by Jeff Wilson on January 16, 2006 07:24 PM Link to comment |
If Zawahiri had been there, would it have been evil to take out the #2 Al-Queda leader? I'd say no.
Was Zawahiri invited to dinner as a social function or by people who shared his political agenda? In the case of the latter, why is this an issue?
|
|
Posted by m on January 16, 2006 09:32 PM Link to comment |
If Zawahiri had been there, would it have been evil to take out the #2 Al-Queda leader? I'd say no.
Was Zawahiri invited to dinner as a social function or by people who shared his political agenda? In the case of the latter, why is this an issue?
|
|
Posted by m on January 16, 2006 09:32 PM Link to comment |
Yes, M, if Zawahiri were there, it would have been evil to fire a missle into the home and slaughter children and non-combatants. If he had been there invited by people whose views disgust you and me, it would have been evil to fire a missle into the home to maim and murder children and non-combatants. The actions of the CIA in this case were no better than those of the most depraved terrorist. While you are trying to justify the technically illegal, blatantly immoral, and totally ineffective violence of our operatives the bones of those dead children cry out and shame you. I truly hope a foreign nation never blows up your house and family because they heard a rumor that someone they don't like was invited to sup there.
|
|
Posted by Jeff Wilson on January 16, 2006 09:41 PM Link to comment |
I agree with Jeff 99%. If Zawahiri were threat enough to other innocents, and if a drone-fired missile were the only way to stop him, then I would view that missile as evil, but as a necessary evil.
I don't know how much threat Zawahiri poses to other innocents around the world, but I do know that there was no need for a drone fired missile to destroy three homes, and the innocent people inside. If the CIA was so confident Zawahiri was there, they could have flown in a special ops unit to surround, survey, and capture him, without recklessly taking innocent life.
As such... this was unforgivable.
|
|
Posted by smijer on January 16, 2006 09:48 PM Link to comment |
I believe it was on "Face the Nation" that I heard McCain say that he was so sorry for the loss of innocent life but that if we had it to do over we would and we should. I think we can expect much more of this kind of thing in the future. We are definitely being led by a shoot- first-and-ask-questions-later administration.
Geopolitics confuse the hell out of me but isn't (or wasn't) Pakistan considered a friend? This puts their president in one hell of a predicament. Can you imagine trying to explain to the citizens why having Americans take shots at them from the dark is ultimately a good idea and is good for the country and the world?
It still seems to me that a policy of utter chaos in the Middle East is part of our strategy. I just can't figure out how we gain from this in the long run.
|
|
Posted by Buck on January 17, 2006 08:59 AM Link to comment |
I just read that 4 of the 18 were "terrorists" whatever in the hell that means. I guess now we will claim that while we missed al Qaeda #2 we did take care of #3, #4, #5 and #6.
I wish I could get a deck of cards showing all of the top members of al Qaeda and where they are in the groups hierarchy. So far I don't think I have ever heard of but two members and we cannot seem to get our hands on either of them.
|
|
Posted by Buck on January 17, 2006 12:41 PM Link to comment |
"I truly hope a foreign nation never blows up your house and family because they heard a rumor that someone they don't like was invited to sup there."
I hope that as well.
Hopefully the odds of my house being bombed are reduced by the fact that I don't invite known terrorists to dinner.
There was no evil in the bombing of the houses. There is a war going on in Afghanistan and removing the leadership of Al-Queda is key to permanently ending the war.
The "send in Delta force" is a nice job of arm chair quarterbacking. If members of the military force had been sent in and some of them had gotten killed or wounded that would not have been a reasonable trade.
|
|
Posted by m on January 19, 2006 06:49 PM Link to comment |
If members of the military force had been sent in and some of them had gotten killed or wounded that would not have been a reasonable trade.
So it's better to risk the lives of innocent civilians than the people who volunteered to take the risks?
My response is, a) I have more confidence in the skill of the Deltas than you ... I think they could have done the op without taking casualties, and b)the women and children in those homes did not start this war, and don't deserve to die or have their family torn apart by it simply because we are too lazy or cowardly to take the measures we could have.
|
|
Posted by smijer on January 19, 2006 07:28 PM Link to comment |
If Pakistan is an ally, why not just let them take the appropriate measures to capture of kill these guys?
If Al Qaeda's #2 guy was having dinner at a restaurant in New York would we send in a predator drone to take care of it? How do you think Americans would respond if it were our own citizens and our own places of business that were being leveled by our own government on a hunch?
The next time a major American city is the target of a terrorist attack I can't help but wonder if those who are in favor of violent military solutions will come out and say "well folks, we are at war and this is to be expected. Quit your bitchin'"
|
|
Posted by Buck on January 20, 2006 08:18 AM Link to comment |
Do the dinner guests at the restaurant come armed with AK-47's?
"The next time a major American city is the target of a terrorist attack I can't help but wonder if those who are in favor of violent military solutions will come out and say "well folks, we are at war and this is to be expected. Quit your bitchin'"'
Did you miss the two towers that were previously standing in NYC that don't seem to be there any longer? How about the embassy's in Africa or the USS Cole, or the Kobar Towers in Saudi Arabia?
Did you catch the note from Osama that we should expect more attacks on the US / US interests? ?
I do expect that there will be more attacks coming from Al-Queda. The majority of the people killed in those attacks will be ordinary citizens -- just like most of the people killed today in Afghanistan and Iraq by Al-Queda and other terrorist groups are ordinary citizens.
Going back to the armchair quarter back thing....perhaps there were good reasons not to use special forces (time to target, availability, risk, etc.). Typically there is good intel to be gotten from this level of operative so catching him alive might have had value. Truth is, we just don't know what the reasoning was.
|
|
Posted by m on January 20, 2006 01:01 PM Link to comment |
I did enjoy Bin Laden's latest. My favorite part
You have tried to prevent us from leading a dignified life, but you will not be able to prevent us from a dignified death. Failing to carry out jihad, which is called for in our religion, is a sin. The best death to us is under the shadows of swords. Don't let your strength and modern arms fool you. They win a few battles but lose the war. Patience and steadfastness are much better. We were patient in fighting the Soviet Union with simple weapons for 10 years and we bled their economy and now they are nothing.In that there is a lesson for you.
Most of the folks we have killed have been ordinary citizens too. I would be willing to wager that since all of this started the United States military has killed exponentially more civilians than Al Qaeda has (accidentally of course). The advantage of not counting them is that nobody will ever really know.
|
|
Posted by Buck on January 20, 2006 04:21 PM Link to comment |
"Most of the folks we have killed have been ordinary citizens too."
This is undoubtable true though I don't believe that the people at the dinner party fall into the category of "ordinary citizens".
Some of the challenges of the fight on terrorism is that the enemy is not easily identified and they intentionally put themselves in civilian populations.
There is no joy in "colateral damage" but when the enemy you are fighting doesn't fcasualties
|
|
Posted by m on January 20, 2006 07:39 PM Link to comment |
